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  #1  
Old 17th June 2014, 12:44 PM
Coleslaw Coleslaw is offline
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Multiple Project Removal

The admins have gotten together and discussed the current state of projects in the Vault and have decided it is time for a cleanup. Below are the projects we have discussed and decided should be removed. However, as custom to the Vault, we wanted to give non-admins a chance to be heard and give support or disagree with our decision for removal.

The following 4 projects were decided to be removed due to the consistent lack of work. Even when work is generated, it is not enough to fairly create an ongoing competition. We feel that in the future they may return if they can show steady available work.
ABC
RNA
LHC
The Lattice Project


The following project has been found to be in violation with DC-Vault rules for quite some time. It does not add new members and teams immediately upon registration. This was tested out and when last checked took 2 days short of 6 weeks to be added to a team.
PSP

Project eligibility is governed by the following guidelines:

The project must:
  • be active
  • accept new members and teams immediately upon registration
  • have parsable team stats
  • have team stats that are updated regularly
  • provide a client program which runs on a local PC
The project must not:
  • be a keylogger or mouseclick counter
  • have a maximum number of teams or members or exclude any country
The last project was decided because it too has been having troubles meeting Vault requirements. They have not had consistent stats and have made it a very low priority to fix. They are also having work unit shortage issues on top of the Vault rules violations.

Climate Prediction
Project eligibility is governed by the following guidelines:

The project must:
  • be active
  • accept new members and teams immediately upon registration
  • have parsable team stats
  • have team stats that are updated regularly
  • provide a client program which runs on a local PC
The project must not:
  • be a keylogger or mouseclick counter
  • have a maximum number of teams or members or exclude any country

All of the above projects were chosen because the issues they have suffered from span across several months. This is not a quick rash decision based on a typical hiccup that projects come across. These are ongoing issues. If for some reason you believe this list of projects needs adjusted or is unfair in any way, please speak up here in this thread.

Thank you,
Your Admin staff

Last edited by Coleslaw; 17th June 2014 at 12:48 PM.
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  #2  
Old 17th June 2014, 03:07 PM
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Beyond Beyond is offline
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I for one agree with your choices with the possible exception of LHC. No strong feelings on that front though. Nice job.

Edit: I feel that there's one other that should be removed but don't want to name it. You know why.

Last edited by Beyond; 17th June 2014 at 03:22 PM.
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  #3  
Old 24th June 2014, 07:21 AM
Michael H.W. We's Avatar
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Hi, I just got notified that our project RNA World shall be removed from DC-Vault. I am asking you to keep RNA World, because it simply satisfies all the requirements to be part of DC-Vault.
The fact that we are having much fewer work units since many months does not at all mean that the project is inactive: we are working hard on implementing a universal checkpointing approach and do testing with work units that run long over and over again, because there are still some flaws in the system to take care of.
We are also having enough small WUs which could be run during this transition phase but we would prefer to come up with the whole story at once: implemented checkpointing (fully functional) plus loads of new work.

Michael.
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Old 24th June 2014, 01:26 PM
Coleslaw Coleslaw is offline
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PSP

Here is a response from Cytrix to a post at PSP when I made them aware of potential removal.

http://www.mersenneforum.org/showthread.php?t=19447

Quote:
PSP is now run mainly through primegrid and that meets all the rules of DC-Vault. The old teams/PRPnet is for people who cannot use BOINC, which is only a few (8 users-I last counted) for this project. As a result, the website etc is not updated very often.
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  #5  
Old 24th June 2014, 03:28 PM
DigiK-oz DigiK-oz is offline
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So, as for PSP, the admin himself says that Primegrid is the way to go if at all possible; And Primegrid IS in the vault. No issue there.

As for RNA : Michael, a quick look at the server status page shows 8 XXL units in progress (which are very long units), and 255 VM units in progress with an average duration of 289 hours. This, in my book, are long running units as well. Ready to send status has 1 unit of the VM type. I fail to see "enough small WUs"? You state you are working hard on resolving issues, still some flaws, etc. Well, I would say removal from DC-Vault is justified then, at this moment. As Coleslaw indicated, projects can be re-added if and when issues are resolved.

I welcome the removals/additions as proposed; And like Beyond, I would like to see 1 or 2 other projects removed, but I applaud the current suggested cleanup. Good work!
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  #6  
Old 24th June 2014, 07:50 PM
Coleslaw Coleslaw is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DigiK-oz View Post
So, as for PSP, the admin himself says that Primegrid is the way to go if at all possible; And Primegrid IS in the vault. No issue there.

As for RNA : Michael, a quick look at the server status page shows 8 XXL units in progress (which are very long units), and 255 VM units in progress with an average duration of 289 hours. This, in my book, are long running units as well. Ready to send status has 1 unit of the VM type. I fail to see "enough small WUs"? You state you are working hard on resolving issues, still some flaws, etc. Well, I would say removal from DC-Vault is justified then, at this moment. As Coleslaw indicated, projects can be re-added if and when issues are resolved.

I welcome the removals/additions as proposed; And like Beyond, I would like to see 1 or 2 other projects removed, but I applaud the current suggested cleanup. Good work!
DigiK-oz, I am curious to which projects you would like to see removed and the reasoning for that. We can add them to our list of projects for consideration and testing. It would also give others time to investigate and look into the matter. I already know the project Beyond spoke of. He has mentioned it to me in private. However, he has also mentioned it openly in the forums in the past. I would prefer any potential discussion of project add/remove to be public so that if others agree, disagree, or have additional facts to contribute may do so. Thank you for your reply. We encourage more donors to chime in. The more we have stating their peace, the better.
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  #7  
Old 25th June 2014, 06:56 AM
Michael H.W. We's Avatar
Michael H.W. We Michael H.W. We is offline
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When I am talking about few (!) remaining problems with the checkpointing of some of the long WUs, I mean exactly that. Everything else runs just fine. And as said, we don't want to upload small (non-problematic WUs) right now, because we want a clean date to come up with the whole bundle. Estimate of completion is end of August, so my suggestion is, you keep RNA World in DC-Vault until end of August and remove it if the project does not run fully functional as usual at that time. Is that a deal?

Anyway - do whatever you like.

Michael.
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  #8  
Old 25th June 2014, 09:51 AM
DigiK-oz DigiK-oz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coleslaw View Post
DigiK-oz, I am curious to which projects you would like to see removed and the reasoning for that. We can add them to our list of projects for consideration and testing. It would also give others time to investigate and look into the matter. I already know the project Beyond spoke of. He has mentioned it to me in private. However, he has also mentioned it openly in the forums in the past. I would prefer any potential discussion of project add/remove to be public so that if others agree, disagree, or have additional facts to contribute may do so. Thank you for your reply. We encourage more donors to chime in. The more we have stating their peace, the better.
Well, I have mentioned these projects before as well, and got caught in a namecalling/mud-slinging contest when I did

But OK, here goes: (DISCLAIMER: my opinion, please disagree if you wish, and post your opinion, but keep it friendly or at least normal)

DIMES : very inconsistent scoring, where some users get 100+ times the points other users with the same amount of systems get every now and again.

MJ12 : Clearly commercial, since participants are paid for their effort. I have nothing against that, I participate in it myself, but I simply think the vault should not contain/support projects that are commercial since it, in a way, forces teams to participate (or descend the vault rankings). And yes, I know that the current inclusion rules say nothing about that - it is just my opinion.

Cheers,
DigiK-oz
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  #9  
Old 26th June 2014, 06:44 PM
Coleslaw Coleslaw is offline
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I would like to say that we plan on only giving this until July 1st to be debated upon. At that time, Admins will make final decision on the removals.
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  #10  
Old 27th June 2014, 07:45 PM
Grandpa Grandpa is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DigiK-oz View Post
Well, I have mentioned these projects before as well, and got caught in a namecalling/mud-slinging contest when I did

But OK, here goes: (DISCLAIMER: my opinion, please disagree if you wish, and post your opinion, but keep it friendly or at least normal)

DIMES : very inconsistent scoring, where some users get 100+ times the points other users with the same amount of systems get every now and again.

MJ12 : Clearly commercial, since participants are paid for their effort. I have nothing against that, I participate in it myself, but I simply think the vault should not contain/support projects that are commercial since it, in a way, forces teams to participate (or descend the vault rankings). And yes, I know that the current inclusion rules say nothing about that - it is just my opinion.

Cheers,
DigiK-oz
No name calling here just questioning, as far as Dimes goes I am not currently running it but I have ran it in the past on occasion and wish to point out that the inconsistency is just luck of the draw and really has nothing to do with the machine and has more to do with the Internet than anything else as far as I can tell. I have run multiple instances per machine and each instance will vary from day to day one day one instance will score high and the next day it will not. And if you do choose to run multiple instance per machine it comes at a price you will need more ram an if you run enough instance the rig will be unusable for anything else and you have to babysit it. And most of the projects have wide variations in credit received from one WU to the next.
Dimes having the ability to run multiple instances should not be considered as a reason to drop it since there are many projects that you can do that with especially in the GPU field.

As far as Commercial or for profit goes I am not a fan of that I donate my computers and really do not believe a for profit project needs my help. But then we will need to define what commercial/for profit really is below is a quote from a post I mad at our team forums and represents my opinion on that subject. Also is there any rule on this in the qualifications for DC projects ?
Quote:
The first thing you need to do is define Non Profit, while I do not really care to support private industry with my donation, (IMHO they can pay for their own) there remains a very fine line in what is considered to be Non Profit, If there are any betting people out there I would be willing to bet that any research being done out there has patents that have been filed on their results / findings. Most likely these patents have been filed by the institution or scientist or both. If you research F@H for example you will find patents filed by Stanford, Vijay Pande, and the different scientist that create the projects. each of these stand to profit from the research I have donated to, so what is non profit ?
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  #11  
Old 27th June 2014, 10:57 PM
Khali Khali is offline
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I think for most people the line gets drawn in distributed computing when the donors start earning pay. Be it real money or some kind of electronic coin. At that point its no longer a donation but you working for some one. I think most of us doing distributed computing work via Boinc and projects like FAH are here because we want to help make discoveries and that advance science. Be it in Mathematics, Bio/Medical, Physics, or what have you.

I am not real thrilled with the people running the projects getting rich off of our work but then on the other hand they have done the work that is entailed in getting a project up and running and keeping it running. They have set up and run the hardware. They write the applications we run. They study and distribute the results. And a whole lot more.

That is why most of us look down on coin miners and companies that try to bring coin mining into our back yard like Ripple Labs and Cure Coin, just to name a few. Funny how all those wanting to mine coins pack up and move else where when the monetary return goes below a certain point and it all just dies. The Ripple Labs program is a good example of this.

In short the line, to me at least, is when donors become employees or contractors out for a buck.
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  #12  
Old 29th June 2014, 11:02 PM
Coleslaw Coleslaw is offline
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I'm not stating an opinion on the project specifically, but Majestic-12 does pay out to donors that register to do so. https://www.majestic12.co.uk/projects/mj12payreg.php

The requirements to qualify are that you must have contributed 90 days worth of crawling data and 20GB's worth as well. They pay out each quarter. Payout is based on your over all contribution to the project compared to everyone else.
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  #13  
Old 30th June 2014, 06:20 AM
DigiK-oz DigiK-oz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandpa View Post
No name calling here just questioning, as far as Dimes goes I am not currently running it but I have ran it in the past on occasion and wish to point out that the inconsistency is just luck of the draw and really has nothing to do with the machine and has more to do with the Internet than anything else as far as I can tell. I have run multiple instances per machine and each instance will vary from day to day one day one instance will score high and the next day it will not. And if you do choose to run multiple instance per machine it comes at a price you will need more ram an if you run enough instance the rig will be unusable for anything else and you have to babysit it. And most of the projects have wide variations in credit received from one WU to the next.
Dimes having the ability to run multiple instances should not be considered as a reason to drop it since there are many projects that you can do that with especially in the GPU field.
I know, I have been running dimes for quite some time. The points you get are for the number of measurements done, which can vary wildly. But, two of my teammates have been receiving points (and thus, number of measurements) that vastly exceed the theoretical maximum. Dimes measures at most once every 15 seconds (or something like that), so the max would be about 6000 daily, give or take. My teammates got 150.000+ on a single machine sometimes, just out of the blue, for no apparent reason. This is killing for a competition like DC-Vault; Scoring should be consistent for work delivered. Sure, variations in scoring are in most, if not all projects. But a factor of 25+ is way out of the acceptable range, I think.
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  #14  
Old 30th June 2014, 07:24 AM
Da-Grizz Da-Grizz is offline
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Ni + Hi ALL !!

MJ12 has been discussed for removal many times in the past : Here is one example , I urge you all take the time to read the whole 3 pages of posts !

: http://www.team-ninja.com/vbulletin/...ad.php?t=48856 :

Best regds Da-Grizz
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  #15  
Old 30th June 2014, 03:19 PM
Coleslaw Coleslaw is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DigiK-oz View Post
I know, I have been running dimes for quite some time. The points you get are for the number of measurements done, which can vary wildly. But, two of my teammates have been receiving points (and thus, number of measurements) that vastly exceed the theoretical maximum. Dimes measures at most once every 15 seconds (or something like that), so the max would be about 6000 daily, give or take. My teammates got 150.000+ on a single machine sometimes, just out of the blue, for no apparent reason. This is killing for a competition like DC-Vault; Scoring should be consistent for work delivered. Sure, variations in scoring are in most, if not all projects. But a factor of 25+ is way out of the acceptable range, I think.
Have you contacted Ido about the scoring or brought it up in his forums for clarification? I have seen some pretty off the wall scoring on some hosts too, but it is more of the luck of the draw. I however, have not seen it so horribly terrible to say it is broken to non-competitiveness. But then again, I run more than one client and am less affected by it. I would be interested in hearing what you find out from Ido though.
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