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  #16  
Old 3rd March 2011, 06:25 PM
alexc alexc is offline
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I don't really have much time to spend trying to answer questions that are covered in our own forum - if you take part in our project just follow our forum and ask questions there please.
I'll just answer some specific claims here that are incorrect.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggles View Post
1) they aren't building a search engine anymore. It's down, it's not working, all that's getting built is a commercial backlink database.

We never stopped building a search engine, in fact we've got the biggest public search engine in the world that contains more data than Google found - in fact we were the only second group in the world to have beaten their record of 1 trln unique URLs! (see for more details: http://blog.majesticseo.com/general/...on-urls-found/ ) Do you really think that no R&D is necessary to create software that can scale up on a handful of computers (compared to Google - we did not even have teraflop cluster at the time!) to Google's levels of web graph?!?!?! Sure allow subscriptions on that site but the hardware is anything but cheap - if you ever bought proper server (20+ TB HDD, 72 GB RAM) you'd know prices for each easily approach 10k ($16k USD) each. Our hardware suppliers are not altruistic!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggles View Post
2) It's not free if you contribute to MJ12. There's a freebie account available, but it costs 250 a month to get the info (from our results!) that's worth having.

It's free to take part in the project and it's free to verify your own sites on the backlinks search engine (not just to project members but also to anyone who can prove ownership of the site).
I don't know if that qualifies as "worth having" for you - having unlimited access to massive sites like Google? Well, if we did that then we'd need 10-100 times more servers to just handle requests and this would need somehow to be paid for. Effectively by setting a price barrier to access competitor data (your own sites are free) we reduced amount of money we need in order to sustain our development. Without any price we'd just have to shutdown and offer no access even to verified site users.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggles View Post
The top 10 teams have donated more than 7 exabytes of free bandwidth to Majestic12. That's an incredible amount of bandwidth that you've had for free. And it wouldn't be cheap anywhere in the world.

Top 10 teams did a great job, even though you are incorrect (yet again I might add) factually: the correct number is 6.6 petabytes (you can calculate it easily using data shown on our homepage - http://www.majestic12.co.uk/ ) this is out of total crawl of 11.5 petabytes (PB).
I think it is relevant to mention here (assuming Biggles is your name on the project) that your personal contribution is 708 GB out of 11.5 PB which is around 0.006%. The project itself was in existance for over 6 years (over 2200 days) and you personally (if that's your nickname on our site) contributed to it 82 days or 3.7% of the project life.
Taking all this into account I'd say you are not experienced enough with the project to pass a judgement on us, but I don't expect that it would stop you.
Quote:
So you are a company, not a project then?

Majestic-12 Ltd was behind the project from day one - it was registered in October 2004 and the project was publicly launched in January 2005. This is said very clearly on our About page here: http://www.majestic12.co.uk/about.php
All hardware is bought through the company, all employees are paid through it, all research and development happens in the company - that's the only proper way to structure project in a long term. We do annual accounts that anyone who is willing to pay 1 (1.6 USD) can obtain, how else do you expect us to deal with donated servers, revenues etc?
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What is the aim of the project now?
It's the same. By their nature distributed computing projects are long-term - if problem could have been solved in a short time then there would be no need for distribution of calculations.
Quote:
What research is coming out of the project?
We've learnt a lot about parallel systems - our code for building new index has been rewritten a few times over before we could efficiently use multiple servers with many cores - it takes some research to build petabyte sized index using our teraflop cluster (paid from money we earned paid by customers of Majestic SEO by the way - you don't see us begging for money to buy this equipment because we are actually capable of earning it using our skills and knowledge that we've build over the years).
Quote:
Austensibly it was to build a distributed crawler for a search engine, but the search engine is down and has been for months, maybe even years at this point
The search engine is up and it's here: http://www.majesticseo.com - we update it twice a month, something that is a massive processing task. The full text search engine was indeed taken down in 2007 - we simply did not have enough hardware at the time and it was clear that scaling it up requires us to understand relevancy better, if you were actually bothered to spend time time on our forum reading history of the project around 2007-08 you'd know the thinking behind Majestic SEO and this choice of direction, but I assume here you've only got time to make false assertions about the project completely disregarding available information.
Quote:
The only thing our results are going to now is your commercial products. To quote the homepage of project "Majestic-12 is working towards creation of a World Wide Web search engine" - so when is that search engine going to be available? Why is there not a beta up and running? Why is it that MajesticSEO is working using our results but the project's aim appears to be abandoned?
Here is article in the Guardian - http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology...hnologysection - the full text search engine of 1 bln page was available at the time (2006), but as I've explained we run into scalability issues, poor speed due to little hardware that we had (two dual core boxes with 1.5 TB storage in total).
In a way we've achieved our goal of getting large scale full text search engine but it wasn't competitive with Google. Now you might blame us for not achieving this, but hey - let's be fair here: not even Microsoft with billions of dollars and thousands of employees beaten Google!
Quote:
I'm sure you've had to do a lot of research to build the client and all the back end server software, but what have you released in terms of actual papers?
There is little time and no benefit to the project if we started releasing this research - personal vanity of having some scientific papers published with my name on it is not really a factor in my decisions. What's best for the project is though.
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None of that is being released by the project either.
There is no requirement or obligation to do so - a lot of distributed computing projects failed in the first place or have not achieved any practical goals, at least in our case we are successfuly with lots of people using our search engine. Yes you heard it right - every day we get a LOT of people checking data on their sites in our search engine, check out traffic growth here:
http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/majesticseo.com (choose Traffic Stats -> Reach tab -> Max from period).
Quote:
Ultimately, I don't believe that Majestic 12 constitues a DC project. Sure, it's distributed, but this is a commercial enterprise now, not a project to release a better search engine. But that's what people signed up to do.
First of all I think you need to speak for yourself and not "people" - this is open forum and people can comment on their own whether they like the project, or not.
Secondly your view on that we are not a DC project because we are "commercial" or "no research papers" released is laughable - you might not like the project or me, but we are distributed project by nature, here is definition for you: "distributed system consists of multiple autonomous computers that communicate through a computer network. The computers interact with each other in order to achieve a common goal" (source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributed_computing )
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Of course you are pleased with the business model - you're getting a community of people to build a commercial product for you, and all it costs you is 20% (the value of DCP shares) of profit.
Yes I've personally given away 20% of my shares - what did I need to do in order to please you, give away 50%, or 100%? How many other companies behind distributed computing project give away even 0.1% of shares, not some money paid for participation but shares? I have not heard of many.
Quote:
If you had to buy the bandwidth that's been donated, it'd be far in excess of the dividend.
That's true. We did not have any money to buy it at the time, not for following 5-6 years, however bringing up first ever dividend as evidence is laughable yet again because we are not in get-rich-quick mode to pay maximum possible dividends. That's right - we reinvest most of the earned money to buy hardware and hire more staff: given the economy this is a good thing, say this year we took on 2 great students from local university - they are gaining valuable work experience that would certainly help their future careers. Now you probably won't care about that but it is important to me that we are actually a company that is a positive contributor to local economy at the time when it matters most.
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But none of that is relevant to whether or not Majestic 12 constitutes a DC project.
That's where I agree with you!
We are a DC project regardless what you think or what rules of DC Vault say - you can call "black" something that is white, but by doing so it still remains white.
Quote:
I'm not for one minute suggesting you close down Majestic 12. I'm just suggesting that it's not a proper DC project and that it shouldn't really be here. It goes against the ethos of DC projects because it's not altruistic.
That's rubbish. It might go against your own "ethos", or some others who may think like you but you need to wake up and smell the coffee: unlike other projects we have massive hardware bill - we buy hard disks every month and our suppliers are not altruistic - neither is local supermarket, nor power company, nor the data center where as have to host local servers, and science park also has to earn money from rent we pay them in order to survive, that's how the modern world works, even in USSR it was like this and I know that since I was born there!
Quote:
We're subcontractors for a commercial company that both pays with shares and stats.
1) You are not a subcontractor.
2) Subcontractors almost never get paid in shares.
3) Members of the project stand to share success of the venture - I felt it was only fair in the event if we make a profit to pay dividend - something that never happened in over 6 years of company life, that's SIX years - maybe in your view it would have been better not to issue any shares, but I felt that it was the only right way, you can of course refuse to accept them - that's up to you, but don't diss the model - it is fair and pretty ground breaking.

I'd say more but I still need to fix elusive bug in new index building code - no amount of altruism would fix this bug without hard work.
Alex.
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  #17  
Old 3rd March 2011, 06:34 PM
alexc alexc is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beyond (Ars) View Post
Hi Alex. Not suggesting at all that you close down, just brought up the question of whether MJ-12 is appropriate for the Vault.
This is fair enough - I am not here to make rules for DC Vault, and even though it would be said to be removed from list of projects here this is the decision I can understand and respect.
What I wanted to make sure though that on one hand some false information about project is not taken as factual, and on another hand I wanted to make it clear that some of the "ideas" suggested above would certainly doom our project, yes that's right - this would be the consequence of accepting what Biggles suggests.
It's more than 6 years that we've started the project and we are finally having great success - we might not have Google beating project but nobody else achieved that so far, while I appreciate the desire to achieve it, one should be clear that Google is a very good company with brilliant people who have access to billions, if they were "altruistic" and never charged customers for advertising they'd go bust long time ago. It is the same for us - Majestic SEO for us is the same as Adwords for Google.
Now you might not approve of our model but I am firmly believe that we will become a model for future DC projects: you won't last long term if you have to beg for money, SETI@home can get away with it but smaller projects simply can't - sharing with the community by virtue of shares though is the right way forward.
Alex
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  #18  
Old 3rd March 2011, 06:45 PM
alexc alexc is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggles View Post
Of course you are pleased with the business model - you're getting a community of people to build a commercial product for you, and all it costs you is 20% (the value of DCP shares) of profit.
Oh, forgot to answer this properly: I am very pleased with community joining the project that helped made it success, however you forgetting to take into account that community run software programmed by yours truly, and we had to develop everything for scratch - the product is not just crawled data but code that can crawl it, index data, build index, search it effectively etc. All that was build by myself and our employees - then there is marketing that is very important (you can have great product and nobody knows about it!), so actually 20% cost of acquiring data before other costs is probably about the right ratio.

I am certain in the future I will be told that I was insane to offer so many shares and that it was much smarter to just buy bandwidth to build great product, and you know what I'd tell them? I'd tell them to **** *** as they would have any clue about the starting conditions we were in and the great community that helped the project go through dark ages without any payout.

That's why I am not ashamed in the least to have declared first dividend in December 2010 - from my point of view this is the start of rewards that our community fully deserved.

It's not too late to join the project and be part of it...

Alex
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  #19  
Old 4th March 2011, 01:26 AM
Biggles Biggles is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexc View Post
We never stopped building a search engine...
You make out on your project homepage that the crunchers are building a usable search engine. It's not properly usable without paying 3000 a year, which is disingenuous.

Quote:
It's free to take part in the project and it's free to verify your own sites on the backlinks search engine (not just to project members but also to anyone who can prove ownership of the site).
I don't know if that qualifies as "worth having" for you - having unlimited access to massive sites like Google? Well, if we did that then we'd need 10-100 times more servers to just handle requests and this would need somehow to be paid for. Effectively by setting a price barrier to access competitor data (your own sites are free) we reduced amount of money we need in order to sustain our development. Without any price we'd just have to shutdown and offer no access even to verified site users.
Your point is what exactly? How is any of this relevant to whether you are a commercial business or not? Look, I understand you have costs and that if you release everything completely free then you'd have no revenue stream and would have unsustainable demand. But stop denying that this a commercial business first and foremost.

Quote:
Top 10 teams did a great job, even though you are incorrect (yet again I might add) factually: the correct number is 6.6 petabytes (you can calculate it easily using data shown on our homepage - http://www.majestic12.co.uk/ ) this is out of total crawl of 11.5 petabytes (PB).
I think it is relevant to mention here (assuming Biggles is your name on the project) that your personal contribution is 708 GB out of 11.5 PB which is around 0.006%. The project itself was in existance for over 6 years (over 2200 days) and you personally (if that's your nickname on our site) contributed to it 82 days or 3.7% of the project life.
Taking all this into account I'd say you are not experienced enough with the project to pass a judgement on us, but I don't expect that it would stop you.
My bad, I used the wrong prefix. You are right, petabytes. Except, adding up the top 10 still gives 7 petabytes, but that's neither here nor there. Point is massive amounts of bandwidth donated for your business.

I think it's relevant to mention there are numerous Biggles in the DC world and you have no idea who I am. Even if that is me, which I'm neither confirming nor denying, 708 GB and 82 days worth of contributed time seems plenty to form an opinion based on what's been said on your website and your forum.

Quote:
We've learnt a lot about parallel systems - our code for building new index has been rewritten a few times over before we could efficiently use multiple servers with many cores - it takes some research to build petabyte sized index using our teraflop cluster (paid from money we earned paid by customers of Majestic SEO by the way - you don't see us begging for money to buy this equipment because we are actually capable of earning it using our skills and knowledge that we've build over the years).

The search engine is up and it's here: http://www.majesticseo.com - we update it twice a month, something that is a massive processing task. The full text search engine was indeed taken down in 2007 - we simply did not have enough hardware at the time and it was clear that scaling it up requires us to understand relevancy better, if you were actually bothered to spend time time on our forum reading history of the project around 2007-08 you'd know the thinking behind Majestic SEO and this choice of direction, but I assume here you've only got time to make false assertions about the project completely disregarding available information.

There is little time and no benefit to the project if we started releasing this research - personal vanity of having some scientific papers published with my name on it is not really a factor in my decisions. What's best for the project is though.

First of all I think you need to speak for yourself and not "people" - this is open forum and people can comment on their own whether they like the project, or not.
Secondly your view on that we are not a DC project because we are "commercial" or "no research papers" released is laughable - you might not like the project or me, but we are distributed project by nature, here is definition for you: "distributed system consists of multiple autonomous computers that communicate through a computer network. The computers interact with each other in order to achieve a common goal" (source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributed_computing )
There's no need to make any of this personal.

My point amounts to this:
Majestic 12 is a commercial business. Yes it has a distributed architecture. But our donations are to a commercial business, we're building a product you sell. Any research you've done is solely to enhance and develop your product, it's not for the good of anyone else. IMO, it's disingenuous to claim this isn't a business first and foremost.

It's also why I don't think that Majestic 12 should be in the DC Vault. Run your project all you like, I don't have an issue with that. But you get a big boost from being in the DC Vault and I think it's unfair that teams essentially HAVE to run Majestic12 or forfeit points.

It's not about money. It's about recognising whether this is an altruistic project or a business. I know which I think it is.
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  #20  
Old 4th March 2011, 09:09 AM
Da-Grizz Da-Grizz is offline
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Dear Sir Biggles , and all , Ni and Hi !


Some thoughts on DC projects .

Many of them are funded by centres of learning , i.e , generally the taxpayer , you and me .
To date , more than 70% of them have never published any data , mainly because they were an avenue for the research student to forward their own goals . (Check out Free DC stats )
Some of the mathematical projects have a direct bearing on securing the internet and credit card world , this data is sold to interested parties . (But never the less are DC Vault projects ) .
Some projects are/were totally frivolous (think Belgium beer here ) – and defunct , but was up to the contributor to participate – or not .The aim of BB was to gain experience of Boinc , did that project team go on and use that knowledge commercially ? Investigate please .
All contributors to any project have a choice , it’s up to them . Check out the TSC (defunct now) concept of rewarding contributors . (Was in the Vault untill 2 years ago when it went bust ) .
MoneyBee was excluded because it did not meet the DC rules of registration ect , but was still a commercial project and in the Vault untill then .
I will not start on projects like YoYo or Aqua , but suspect you Sir(s) , only want projects that meet your own requirements , not the existing DC Vault rules .
Indeed , the Vault is a major incentive to participate in projects to gain a ranking , but not to all – look at the Vault and see where many teams could advance substantially by creating a team in a project where they do not have one now .
Some projects are pure research only , but even CERN (Muon or Dpad) exchange their research/results for kind !

Not flaming anyone here , but is it money or greater good of/for mankind the aim of DC world here ?
Personally , I do it for FUN . This discussion may be part of that if it makes people think about what they are doing and why with their cwycles .

Best Regs Grizzly
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  #21  
Old 4th March 2011, 09:38 AM
alexc alexc is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggles View Post
You make out on your project homepage that the crunchers are building a usable search engine. It's not properly usable without paying 3000 a year, which is disingenuous.
That's not true. We've got tens of thousands of webmasters and marketing professionals using us every day for free - majority of those who pay us only pay 10+VAT a month (that's around two McDonalds meals). A small number of *large* companies pay us 250+VAT a month - it is not uncommon for those companies to have millions in annual turnover. I don't know what your job is but people who use our search engine for free appreciate it a lot. Hell, we've even made long video in our blog to show what our search engine can do for free, watch it here: http://blog.majesticseo.com/general/...-you-for-free/ - look at the blog comments, here is the last one: "Thats a lot of stuff for free!"
Quote:
Your point is what exactly? How is any of this relevant to whether you are a commercial business or not? Look, I understand you have costs and that if you release everything completely free then you'd have no revenue stream and would have unsustainable demand. But stop denying that this a commercial business first and foremost.
No, you don't understand - we don't just have costs, we have large recurring costs: rent of many racks for servers, power for servers, staff salaries (we now employ around 10 people, that's high tech 10 jobs created in tough UK economy but I guess you don't give a monkey about it), taxes, rent of office, necessity buying new hard disks every month etc etc. All this requires us to keep earning money if we are to stay alive - and we are in a tough market so we have to be very good at what we do. Luckily for us this means that we need to make our search engine better something that we do, say we now update our webgraph map twice a month - a massive undertaking that required a lot of R&D as well as hardware.
Quote:
Point is massive amounts of bandwidth donated for your business.
Indeed, and the founders of the company personally passed 20% of the business to LLP that would compensate for donations. If you don't think this is good enough then don't take part in the project, even better start your own and show the world how your own unique model would work - ours is working just fine now. Unless you can name right now other DC projects that are successful in securing their long term future and who passed more shares/benefits to members, then you simply have noone better than us in this.

I mean you seem to completely undervalue amount of programming effort that was put into crawler, indexer, merger, search modules - making it all work together took many years of full time work, and what - you are not happy that the company shared 20% with people who helped obtain the data in the first place, what the %-tage should have been: 30%? 50%? 120%? You offer no viable alternatives - in fact what you offer is the path to certain bankruptcy and closure of the project, which you certainly do not appear to have contributed much in the first place (which is fine by the way - I appreciate not everyone has got good internet connection, router etc).
Quote:
I think it's relevant to mention there are numerous Biggles in the DC world and you have no idea who I am. Even if that is me, which I'm neither confirming nor denying, 708 GB and 82 days worth of contributed time seems plenty to form an opinion based on what's been said on your website and your forum.
That's odd: you refuse to say whether you've taken part in the project or not, why? Don't forget that in order to participate in LLP you will need to supply all information legally required: your name, address (possibly something else I need to check). Well, I guess it would be safe to assume that you either did not take part in the project at all or contributed very little - historically my position has always been such that people who don't contribute to our project have very little say about it's future.
Quote:
I think it's unfair that teams essentially HAVE to run Majestic12 or forfeit points.
You don't sound very altruistic to me at all - you seem to care about points more than anything: it almost sounds like it would be convenient for your points to have our project kicked out of DC Vault. Frankly if you demand altruism from projects then you should be altruistic enough to run projects without any points (that's payment in kind you know!)
Quote:
It's not about money. It's about recognising whether this is an altruistic project or a business. I know which I think it is.
Well you think you do, but so far you are totally wrong about factual things that you keep insisting on - you don't need to PAY at all to use our search engine. There is an option to PAY to use search engine for in-depth competitor reports - we just can't give everything away for free because that would mean we'll have to shutdown the project. This isn't something I am prepared to do and nobody in their sane mind would even contemplate doing - frankly I'd expect most people to be reasonable and understand (after studying all evidence about the project).
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  #22  
Old 4th March 2011, 03:57 PM
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Beyond Beyond is offline
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I hope we can keep this discussion on a factual, civil level. There's many valid ways of looking at this and people have different points of view. Generally it comes down to that old question of commercial projects in the Vault. There's certainly nothing wrong with commercial projects in general, what we need to decide is whether we want to virtually "require" users to run them by including them in the Vault. One of the aims here is to help beginning projects get off the ground. We've done that in this case and I'm glad we did. Please lets not let this thread degenerate into name calling and character assassination.
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  #23  
Old 4th March 2011, 04:47 PM
alexc alexc is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beyond (Ars) View Post
Please lets not let this thread degenerate into name calling and character assassination.
Indeed, I am all for it - I just had no choice but to get involved in this in order to respond to factual errors.
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  #24  
Old 4th March 2011, 05:12 PM
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Razor_FX_II Razor_FX_II is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leavitron View Post
This won't be the first time that the issue of changing the Vault rules has been brought up. If that is your hang up then *I* vote for amending the Vault rules to disallow commercial projects like this.
Well I try see all this from the eyes of the DC-Vaults inclusion rules.
The DC-Vault rules for inclusion state "that the project must not have a maximum number of teams or members or exclude any country".
I believe this is part of the rules so the DC-Vault does not included projects that may discriminate against it's members.

Perhaps the inclusion rules need to be amended so that projects themselves can't be discriminated against for being funded from this place or that place which would include commercial projects or what type of projects they are, prime or theoretical and so on.

I feel if the DC-Vault community is going to start discriminating against projects then it looses credibility and I want no part of it.
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  #25  
Old 4th March 2011, 06:19 PM
Da-Grizz Da-Grizz is offline
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Well said Sir Razor FX II

"I feel if the DC-Vault community is going to start discriminating against projects then it looses credibility and I want no part of it."

Regds Da-Grizz

PS: Credulabilty ? Maybe ?
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  #26  
Old 4th March 2011, 07:38 PM
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We already discriminate and always have. It's just a question of what the rules for inclusion should be.

Top 2 definitions of discriminate from the free dictionary:

1.a. To make a clear distinction; distinguish: discriminate among the options available.
1.b.
To make sensible decisions; judge wisely.

Hopefully we will make the wisest possible decision, whatever that is.
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  #27  
Old 4th March 2011, 07:51 PM
Rusty Rusty is offline
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I have to admit to everyone.. It was not be chance Alex popped by.. I asked Alex(and have done to every project that gets posted in the removal forum) to pop over, I thought it was only fair.

I think it might be time to re-visit the commercial/non case again.

I personally don't really care if the project makes cash from our work. My work charges me out at $250/hour and I get paid $27. Not the same thing but that's how I see it, I work for much less then Australian Quarantine get paid.

But this thread is about M-12 not the commercial/non conversation.
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  #28  
Old 4th March 2011, 08:31 PM
Da-Grizz Da-Grizz is offline
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Ni + Hi Sir Rusty !!

You do talk sence Rusty (No wallabees here ![quarinted(*) or not ] - or is it wananabees ?? - forgive my sence of humuss ? where am the smileys ? ) Yes please do what you proposed on your PM to me , me , I cannot rememer nufink .

This is getting interesting

Regds Grizz-Da
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  #29  
Old 5th March 2011, 10:36 AM
LinearB LinearB is offline
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As one of the people in at the beginning of the DC-Vault it makes me smile how things have developed . It's original intention was to encourage friendly team rivalry whilst also encouraging people to point their PC Mhz at some of the underdog projects. It was never the intention to judge the project, just that they be open to all and provide some kind of benchmark to measure contribution.

Everybody's view of what makes a worthwhile project is different and sometimes it was just what project best suited a person's cicumstances (OS Support / CPU Type / Memory / Dial-Up requirements (remember dialup ).

Judgements have been made with some projects based on KeyClicks for instance but on the whole the less restrictions the better in my opinion.

The only problem I could see with commercially based DC projects are where people could be paid for their contribution (apart from the obvious prize money / t-shirt / mug).

I wish I was clever enough to harness the enthusiasm of DC contributers into a viable business proposition
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Old 5th March 2011, 05:49 PM
Biggles Biggles is offline
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Join Date: Dec 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexc View Post
That's not true. We've got tens of thousands of webmasters and marketing professionals using us every day for free
Your project homepage is misleading then. You say Majestic 12 is about making a distributed search engine. It's not. The average person reading that would think you mean a search engine like Google, or Bing, or Yahoo. The project is strictly about making the backlinks database which you sell.

So please, be open and admit that this is a commercial project. It exists to help your company sell SEO products. It doesn't exist to build a competitor to Google, it doesn't exist to do research into distributed crawling. It's about making money.

Oh, and as you're based in the UK, you should be aware that the Advertising Standards Authority now have jurisdiction over marketing on websites. It's pretty clear that your homepage is not honest and truthful about the aims of Majestic 12.

Quote:
I mean you seem to completely undervalue amount of programming effort that was put into crawler, indexer, merger, search modules - making it all work together took many years of full time work, and what - you are not happy that the company shared 20% with people who helped obtain the data in the first place, what the %-tage should have been: 30%? 50%? 120%? You offer no viable alternatives - in fact what you offer is the path to certain bankruptcy and closure of the project, which you certainly do not appear to have contributed much in the first place (which is fine by the way - I appreciate not everyone has got good internet connection, router etc).
None of this is relevant to anything I've said. I know you've worked hard. I know that it took a long time. And I also know that you've shared a percentage with the community. I'm not looking for you to change anything about the setup of the project. I just want an admission that this is commercial. I don't think it belongs in the Vault, but that in itself shouldn't affect whether you continue the project or not.

Quote:
That's odd: you refuse to say whether you've taken part in the project or not, why? Don't forget that in order to participate in LLP you will need to supply all information legally required: your name, address (possibly something else I need to check). Well, I guess it would be safe to assume that you either did not take part in the project at all or contributed very little - historically my position has always been such that people who don't contribute to our project have very little say about it's future.
Oh look, misdirection. I've contributed enough to know about the project. I also know that use of bandwidth for commercial purposes like this using home connections contravenes the terms and conditions of most ISPs.

Quote:
You don't sound very altruistic to me at all - you seem to care about points more than anything: it almost sounds like it would be convenient for your points to have our project kicked out of DC Vault. Frankly if you demand altruism from projects then you should be altruistic enough to run projects without any points (that's payment in kind you know!)
I have run projects without points before. I just object to volunteers being used for commercial gain.

Quote:
Well you think you do, but so far you are totally wrong about factual things that you keep insisting on - you don't need to PAY at all to use our search engine. There is an option to PAY to use search engine for in-depth competitor reports - we just can't give everything away for free because that would mean we'll have to shutdown the project. This isn't something I am prepared to do and nobody in their sane mind would even contemplate doing - frankly I'd expect most people to be reasonable and understand (after studying all evidence about the project).
Alex, the project website misleads people as to the intention of the project. You say it's to build a distributed search engine, so why can't you search using it? The results go to a commercial product. Sure a limited amount is available for free, but only a limited amount. This is a business first and foremost, yet you keep denying it. It's not a true distributed computing project and I don't think it belongs in the Vault.

DISCLAIMER - I've actually used Majestic SEO for commercial purposes!
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