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  #16  
Old 3rd August 2016, 03:46 AM
Coleslaw Coleslaw is offline
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The project has discussed wanting to develop a third app that is potentially CPU intensive
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  #17  
Old 3rd August 2016, 08:57 AM
DigiK-oz DigiK-oz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NMA View Post
Wow, lots of great points while I was away.

With the lack of compute power used by the project I have to wonder why it even exists as a distributed client. A single system could handle the entire work load of this project. My first conclusion is the client has other objectives to sit idle in the background.
I thought of that as well, might be the ultimate spyware, people installing it voluntarily. It just sits there, harvesting keystrokes or whatever, uploading the harvested data as WU's. No proof of anything like that, though.

If they will be releasing a CPU-intensive app, I really wonder what will happen to the points system. Currently, millions of points are gathered using tricks like VM's and other. If they then change to a cpu-intensive app, delivering a few thousand points daily, if will be impossible for new teams to climb the rankings at any decent speed...would be another reason for it to be ditched from the vault, I think.
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  #18  
Old 3rd August 2016, 02:07 PM
Coleslaw Coleslaw is offline
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That is a good point DigiK-oz. However, when projects have changed up applications in the past which also changed scoring, those projects were not removed. A great example is POEM. Their old GPU application scored a lot higher and there was grumbling when they brought the new one out. The basic answer was If you snooze, you lose. I do agree that they are paying out way too much credit for an NCI application as they are. But then again, that is comparing apples to oranges until they have a CPU application. We shouldn't compare this project to any other project as scoring is different for all.
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  #19  
Old 3rd August 2016, 03:05 PM
DigiK-oz DigiK-oz is offline
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I know, it has happened before. But fair? No. Comparing different projects is another story, but comparing two "iterations" of a single project, vastly different but with totally skewed scoring, but retaining the points gathered with the "old" scoring?

I do not know what to do about it, though. Except maybe only counting the last year or so of each project's production to determine position in the vault.

Last edited by DigiK-oz; 3rd August 2016 at 03:08 PM.
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  #20  
Old 4th August 2016, 01:15 AM
Coleslaw Coleslaw is offline
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Well... changing how the Vault scores isn't likely to happen unless the owners decide to do an overhaul of the site and how it functions. There is discussion within the admin section a little bit, but to be honest it has been a very slow progression. Needless to say, until there is an option for re-coding the site, we work with what we have.
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  #21  
Old 4th August 2016, 04:27 PM
DigiK-oz DigiK-oz is offline
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I understand that Just thinking out loud here.
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  #22  
Old 6th October 2016, 04:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iconized View Post
Because of possibilities with this project, I suspect that soon the website of this project will not respond any more.
Too many clients trying to connect, uploading, requesting new tasks, etc.
Hi iconized, haven't posted here for a while. Hope everyone is doing well. Seems that the Admin doesn't want multiple instances:

http://goofyxgridathome.net/forum_th...postid=979#979

Not sure what he can do about it though. Personally I don't feel like we should be treating a project in a way that's adverse to the Admin's wishes.

Last edited by Beyond; 6th October 2016 at 04:07 AM.
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  #23  
Old 6th October 2016, 02:02 PM
Coleslaw Coleslaw is offline
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Well, kinda. The admin has thrown a lot of mixed signals to users. In the beginning they said no virtual machines because they feared people comparing them to FreeHAL and having to deal with the outrage that came with it. Yet they only punished a few. There are a few known large contributors that use mostly VM's that were not pulled. I will let them remain nameless as only they could prove otherwise. Then the admins pulled all of the threads that had discussions of virtual machines being against the rules. Yes all of them. They have not came out and said they are not allowed since. They have not came out and said multiple instances is breaking the rules. They have only implied that massive count (please define what that means so everyone knows what the limit is...we are talking about being fair) instances have been banned. Also don't forget that they were asking for ways to bring more resources to the project. So, it isn't that they don't want the extra help. It is that they fear users outrage and aren't quite sure how to handle it. If they bite the hands providing the resources, then they don't get the resources they desire.

The real question here is why it bothers people in the first place? Are they really incapable of doing the same thing? Are they just too lazy? If points and position matter that much, why aren't they doing it too? The project is doing fine as is, so you can't say they are harming the project. I for one think that they pay too much credit per work unit. But that is just my opinion.
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  #24  
Old 6th October 2016, 02:30 PM
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All good Points Coleslaw. Maybe we'll know more if/when he answers my question. Until then I'm personally just running one client per machine. If he says that it's OK to do more, I'll do more. I've never knowingly gone against a project admins wishes as it just seems wrong to mess with someone's project to gain points. Seems like it's antithetical to the whole concept of distributed computing. Probably one reason why the WUProp admin wants to stay away from competitions such as the Vault.
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  #25  
Old 6th October 2016, 03:59 PM
Coleslaw Coleslaw is offline
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I agree. If the admin sets clear rules, then by all means play by them. However, in this case the admin seems to be playing both sides of the fence and leaving things in that gray area for a reason.

WUProp is slightly different. Sebastien does well with keeping it away as you state because he knows people will point whore the project without actually contributing to the science if he does. Since WUProp requires other BOINC projects to be ran in order to do the "science", then there is little incentive to waste resources of a system just to run more instances. It will actually pollute the data or provide nothing. So, in his case he has to be extra sensitive about it.
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  #26  
Old 7th October 2016, 08:51 AM
StyM StyM is offline
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which is more important ? results or points ?
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  #27  
Old 7th October 2016, 01:13 PM
Coleslaw Coleslaw is offline
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Currently they are getting both... But to address the meaning of your baited question, it is up to the user. Some don't care about the science but will still give them the "results" as long as they get what they want in return. This is an old argument. It can't be denied that the points system clearly pushes projects to much higher/quicker result turnout then without it. So, to imply points aren't benefiting this project would be ignorant at best. Most wouldn't look at this project if it weren't NCI and even fewer would look at it if points weren't involved as well. The value of points is highly tied to the actual science being discussed. I think most would agree that this projects "science" isn't really all that important or interesting. I would also argue that the majority of its contributors would have to go back and re-read the science description a time or two before even replying with an idea of what the science is doing. Yes it is some big assumptions there, but I think a bit of common sense can be used here. Since your question also is very broad, I must assume it is in regards to the DC-Vault rather than the world as a whole. So, if you read our front page description, this is a place for bragging about team accomplishments. So, points are even more important here due to the purpose of the website. That means arguing over this topic should be more heavily weighted towards supporting the purpose of this site. Otherwise, why come here at all? Just my 2 cents.

Last edited by Coleslaw; 7th October 2016 at 01:25 PM.
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  #28  
Old 7th October 2016, 01:22 PM
Coleslaw Coleslaw is offline
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To be a bit more clear, Vault points are tied to project standing. Project standing is tied to project points earned. Thus points are very important to your standing. Your standing is the point of coming here. For competition. You participate at that project for your own reasons whether it be points, science, or some other reason. Now whether the points at this project are easier or harder to get compared to other projects is up to that project and should be addressed with that project. WCG is much harder to earn BOINC points than POGS. Vastly different sciences but the argument is deep. How much credit is a "science" worth. Look at GPUGrid and its QRB (quick return bonus). There would be no QRB if points weren't somehow important for the project to get quick results. So, I ask you the same question: Which is more important?
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  #29  
Old 7th October 2016, 04:44 PM
StyM StyM is offline
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yeah i agree, it depends on the person.
reason why i asked is because some volunteers on this project are too obsessed on earning points, some are even accusing others of cheating.
when in fact there was no clear rule on this project to begin with. if they want to earn points for vault, then they should find a means to do it, rather
than accuse other volunteers of cheating. didn't know that even in the DC world there are crybabies too..
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  #30  
Old 7th October 2016, 08:22 PM
Coleslaw Coleslaw is offline
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There are several "crybabies" in the DC world unfortunately. You will find them at most projects any time the issue of points comes up. No matter what the problem is some crusader jumps in and starts rambling about how points don't matter and it is all about the science. I for one don't typically care about points either but I do care about fairness. If you are going to have a system, then you need to manage it and make it right. Points do motivate more work getting done so to put people down for enjoying it is basically telling people not to support the project.
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