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  #31  
Old 28th January 2008, 07:38 AM
Accs Accs is offline
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Originally Posted by umccullough View Post
I don't have an account on the Ars forums (and I'm too lazy to register), therefore hopefully you won't mind if I comment here instead
Not at all. Feedback is good.
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You may want to define "Anonymous" for #2.
It is the account to which points go in a project if no account is specified. It is the PROJECT anonymous account, not just an account in the project that happens to receive the input from many users.

The reason for this particular account is that the project code is usually set up to not allow changes to this account.
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I might also suggest that your concerns about having the account hacked on the parent project isn't really a problem (your primary reasoning for #2). It would only be a temporary problem at most I suspect - once the wrapper project admin contacts the parent project and explains that his account has been hacked, I have to assume the parent project's admins will correct the issue - and possibly even lock the account from it happening again.
I agree that it would probably only be a temporary issue, but it's a completely unnecessary one.

But it's more than that. There's also the issue that the non-BOINC teams in the underlying project will have this HUGE team (the wrapper project team) that competes against them. This looks bad, and requires the DC-Vault admins to add code to extract that project team before the points are computed. I don't believe that the project anonymous accounts are in a team, nor can they be.
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I think the rule should be more loose - such that the team/user that is granted points on the parent project CANNOT also participate as/on a DC-Vault team.
I don't think it would work as well, especially on the larger teams.
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I believe #2 and #3 should be an "OR".
I think it simplifies the ruleset slightly. It also makes it easier for the vault administrators to verify. Finally, it's something that they can point to and say "All the other projects do it, your does too, if you want it in the vault". By minimizing the number of special cases that need to be considered, you simplify the life of the administrator, and you end up with fewer arguments from wanabe projects. The only special case in the four suggested rules is #3. Rule #4 isn't a special case; it's just that you're guaranteed that the wrapped projects will all be in the same group, when there's only one wrapped project.
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#4 is a larger problem than simply wrapper projects... Although I suspect wrapper projects could cause this to get out of hand a lot quicker.
TTBOMK, this has only come up in wrappers.
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Any BOINC project could run any number of applications that may or may not be related to each other.
Could you please point me to one? Perhaps Rule #4 should be generalized. Could you provide alternate (more general) wording?
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  #32  
Old 28th January 2008, 07:54 PM
umccullough umccullough is offline
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Any BOINC project could run any number of applications that may or may not be related to each other.
Could you please point me to one? Perhaps Rule #4 should be generalized. Could you provide alternate (more general) wording?
Well, many of the BOINC projects have multiple applications - most related to each other or at least in the same category - but there's no requirement that it be this way.

Just go to their project page and click the "Applications" link to find out how many they are using.

I believe Leiden allows other people to develop applications and get them approved. It appears they're all mostly "Physical Science" based currently, but that could possibly change.

WCG even appears to have a new AfricanClimate project - which would be a probably different category than their usual medical/biological projects. I don't know much about it otherwise. This would be a primary example of what could happen regarding categorization. I therefore think it's a poor decision to limit a project's participation based on whether the science spills into multiple categories or not.

Even now, if you were to take the vague categorization of projects from DC-Vault and break it down any further - you'd very likely start running into conflicts.

I'm not sure I really understand the exact purpose of this rule you're suggesting - other than another way to specifically exclude yoyo@home and projects like it in the future. I think it's clear that distributed computing technology could be used for any number of purposes, and a project could take on multiple problems covering various categories if they have the resources to do so.

What if something like Travelling Salesman Project (which I would categorize as a mathematical issue) were to be maybe used for some type of physical science or medical research next? Would it be immediately excluded by your rule?
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  #33  
Old 29th January 2008, 01:08 AM
Accs Accs is offline
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Originally Posted by umccullough View Post
I'm not sure I really understand the exact purpose of this rule you're suggesting
Several good points here. An update was posted in the Ars Technica forum here.
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  #34  
Old 29th January 2008, 02:06 AM
umccullough umccullough is offline
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Originally Posted by Accs View Post
Several good points here. An update was posted in the Ars Technica forum here.
Thanks for cross-posting my comments

Anyhow, I'll wait a bit and see how the discussion unfolds on the Ars forum now.
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  #35  
Old 30th January 2008, 11:50 PM
Rusty Rusty is offline
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I have temporarily stickied this thread...
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  #36  
Old 24th March 2008, 02:47 AM
jbbdude jbbdude is offline
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Speaking of TSP, will that be added to the Vault? I see no reason why not.
It is an honorable endeavor.
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  #37  
Old 7th April 2008, 01:12 AM
fractal fractal is offline
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Much as I too dislike unnecessary procedure, I respectfully propose the following rule for both project additions and removals:

- A one week last call will be posted before any project addition and removal. This will be a probationary period. Any project scheduled for removal for no work will have the removal canceled if work starts flowing. Any project scheduled for addition will not be added if no work is flowing during the probationary period.

APS was added to the vault just as it ran out of work with the only points to be had were reissued work. There is still no work in that project. It does seem an honorable endeavor as well.

TSP was just added to the vault just as it too ran out of work with the only points to be had are reissued work. I have no reason to believe they won't work through their teething issues, but being vaulted sure seems to be a kiss of death for projects of late.
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  #38  
Old 7th April 2008, 02:34 AM
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KAMCOBILL KAMCOBILL is offline
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Hi All,

Predictor @ Home bacically been out of work since August and has just started up again Team Stats . It's still in the Vault. What I can't figure out is why any projects that are reachable is removed. Every project, at least every BOINC Projects has run out of work, been down or has been unreachable at times. Like BURP, for instance, it was removed from the Vault Team Stats . Yet it has plenty of work now.

As long as the rules are met other than work, why don't they remain in the untill they say there are done (e.g. Project Nueron or XtermLab ) and not because there's no work. Sometimes they says they are down and not, like Seasonal Attributes, but I'm still getting work form them. Can't figure that one out.


Just a different view.

Bill

Edited: Proteins @ Home had been out of work from July to February Team Stats.

Last edited by KAMCOBILL; 7th April 2008 at 02:41 AM. Reason: Added P@H
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  #39  
Old 6th October 2008, 07:47 PM
DigiK-oz DigiK-oz is offline
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Having worked my way through the entire thread, I would like to voice my opnion.

The wrapper/yoyo issue : I think buiding a wrapper around non-Boinc projects is a great idea, BUT the credits should be given in the wrapped project, not a seperate project for the wrapper. I have no idea how hard this would be to implement in the wrapper, though. As it is, most of my teammates (Dutch Power Cows) are very reluctant to participate in yoyo, since yoyo might overtake is in the wrapped projects, and we don't like to be overtaken Sort of shooting your own foot.

As for the addition/removal : Since we just recently got interested in our vault-ranking, we are rather low-ranked on several projects. Some of them supply no work, making it impossible for us to gain points there. I know projects can be added/removed, but this always leads to discussion, mainly because the wording in the FAQ is so general. Specifically on the issue of having work available, I would suggest a specific "grace period" of a month or so. Any project which is suggested for addition, gets a "candidate" status (provided it meets the other requirements). If it supplies plenty of work during it's candidate period, it gets included. Similarly, if a projects is suggested for removal, one look at the stats of the project during the previous period will tell whether it should be removed or not. Of course, any removed project can become a candidate for addition if work starts flowing again.

This would make it clear to anyone when a project will be added/removed. Of course, addition or removal is always a disadvantage to some terams, and an advantage to others (depending on the vault-ranking in the specific project). By setting a period like this, it would be clear (and fair) addition/removal.

Having said all this, a big thumbs up to the vault for making distributed computing a little more challenging/interesting.

Last edited by DigiK-oz; 6th October 2008 at 07:50 PM.
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  #40  
Old 11th October 2008, 11:07 AM
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yoyo yoyo is offline
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Hello,
I just found this thread and want to say something to my yoyo@home goals and principles.

The main goal of the yoyo@home wrapper is to bring the Boincies to none-boinc projects and with this increase the computing power for the none-boinc projects. Therefore it is important to have the credits in the Boinc world, in yoyo@home Boinc project, boincstats.com, boincsynergy.com and in all credit comparison pages where boinc teams are compete with others. I also wish to have yoyo@home in DC-Vault. Most Boinc users are not looking into the none-boinc project team stats, even do not have a team there.

The second point is, that a team which crunches via yoyo@home should not get credits twice, in the Boinc world and the none-boinc project.

I'm also aware, that other teams/users are feeling the risk, that all credits of the Boincies can go to a specific team on the none-boinc project to which they compete. Therefore the boinc accounts in the none-boinc project assigned to one wrapper team. With this it is in most projects not possible to move existing credits to new teams. Nearly in all projects credits which are in a team account can't be moved to an different team. All requests to credit a yoyo@home Boinc account to the none-boinc user account for this user are rejected by me. There were already discussions to do it in the forum of muon, in irc with dnet and with the author of evo.

Additionally I and the Boincies want to see how big the power of the Boincies is in the none-boinc project, compared to the power of the none-boinc part. E.g. in evo the Boincies provided up to now more than 50% of all computing power.

yoyo
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  #41  
Old 11th October 2008, 05:18 PM
The Shadow The Shadow is offline
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So ALL Wrapper Non-Boinc projects could go to the Misc Section on DC Vault (YoYo), and points to the teams in the YoYo project only? That would seem fair .

Can/could that work ?

It would be interesting as per your thoughtful comparison .

Shads

Last edited by The Shadow; 11th October 2008 at 05:35 PM.
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  #42  
Old 12th October 2008, 04:46 PM
umccullough umccullough is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Shadow View Post
So ALL Wrapper Non-Boinc projects could go to the Misc Section on DC Vault (YoYo), and points to the teams in the YoYo project only? That would seem fair .
You would have to clarify what a "wrapper" project is specifically, since I believe there are several BOINC projects now using a "wrapper" in order to run a non-boinc client that was developed solely by them.

This would also include PrimeGrid which is crunching purely math projects via wrapper (mostly sieve and LLR). It would have also included RieselSieve BOINC (if they were still running), and a few others which I don't have on the top of my head ATM.

That is, unless you classify this as purely 3rd party wrapper projects (yoyo for example seems to be run by Rechenkraft, not by the respective projects it wraps). But even then, PrimeGrid crunches as a third party for several prime-related projects as well...

It's a pretty gray/grey area
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