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  #1  
Old 20th February 2014, 05:21 PM
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Remove PSP Proth

The venerable PSP Proth project has been around for a long time but is no longer being used to any extent. It's function was taken over long ago by PrimeGrid and the Vault project link points to a thread that was locked almost nine years ago:

http://www.mersenneforum.org/showthread.php?t=2665

It's large point spread per place makes it very difficult for younger teams to move up in the Vault.

The instructions on the 2nd (and last) post:

"A short and simple guide to using various softwares is available here:-"

points to a dead link.

What's even more telling is that there has been exactly 1 user who has posted results in the last 2 weeks and only 2 users in the last 4 weeks.

Vote anyone? (Rusty likes votes)
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  #2  
Old 21st February 2014, 12:24 AM
Coleslaw Coleslaw is offline
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I'm not stating my opinion just yet on the matter because I honestly need more info. (I haven't ran these with anything but BOINC) However, I will state that they mention in their forums that the PrimeGrid method is preferred.

http://www.mersenneforum.org/showthread.php?t=2665

Quote:
Sieving: - There is an automated BOINC client available here. This is the preferred option.
Citrix has also stated that if anyone was interested in reserving they would need to PM him. All the ranges had been reserved by PrimeGrid.

http://www.mersenneforum.org/showthread.php?t=2667

Those updates were 4 days ago.
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  #3  
Old 21st February 2014, 02:15 AM
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Hi Coleslaw,

That's pretty much the state of things in PSP Proth. Your last link shows the locked thread and that PrimeGrid is doing all the Proth work.

I've been intending to post this for quite a while but was a little leary of getting accused of trying to help our team. So now there are no upper level position changes and if anything the ARS team is hurt by this removal (as are most of the top teams). I do think this move will help make the Vault more competitive for teams that haven't been involved for 10+ years. Thanks for the comment and best of luck!
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  #4  
Old 21st February 2014, 02:50 PM
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This is one of the unique situations I have brought up to my team in the past that I really don't like. I don't like the double dipping of projects where you get Vault points at the main project and then it is also part of another project. In this case you get Vault points at PSP and then again at PrimeGrid. This happens with OGR and YoYo too. However, without excluding some people and their choice in clients, I have found no way of preventing this without redesigning the entire point award structure. Even that endeavor would be extremely painful to devise.

However, until we have more refined rules to go off of, it is still an active project with alternative options to running it's work. They are clearly still active in their forums. However, if we had more rules like available work for all, one could argue that they shouldn't have to make special arrangements via PM's to get work outside of connecting a client. Since we don't have those rules, there is no violation. How do you penalize them but not be consistent and just do it to OGR as well? Sounds contradictory. Granted OGR doesn't have the exact headaches as PSP does right now, the arguments could easily be made.

So, my say is that until we can refine the rules for Vault projects or they (PSP) completely eliminate the option of getting work outside of PrimeGrid, I can't vote yes to the removal of it.
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  #5  
Old 21st February 2014, 03:43 PM
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I'd bet that the PSP Proth admin would be more than happy to see the project de-vaulted. It looks like the few that have run it in recent years are only doing so for Vault position. It is totally included in and made irrelevant by PrimeGrid. One has to jump trough large hoops to even get work. But whatever, it's good for the older teams (like my own) to keep it in the Vault. Just thought it would be more equitable to finally put PSP Proth out of its misery and it would go at least a little way towards making the Vault more fair for newer and smaller teams.

> In this case you get Vault points at PSP and then again at PrimeGrid.
> This happens with OGR and YoYo too.

I don't believe that this is correct. OGR is not redundant creditwise with any other Vault project that I know of. I believe you're confusing it with Moo (which does RC5-72 but is NOT in the Vault). OGR is also very active and has many users. Yoyo also includes Muon but the credits only count towards Yoyo and are not transferred to DPAD so there is NO credit redundancy there either. Also both Yoyo and DPAD are VERY active projects with active admins and have no hoops to jump for those wishing to participate. Contrast this with PSP which has only 2 current users (or 1 if we use a 2 week timeframe).

Last edited by Beyond; 21st February 2014 at 06:50 PM. Reason: Edited to add the word creditwise and mnor edits for clarification.
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  #6  
Old 21st February 2014, 04:27 PM
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I'm not saying double points outside of the Vault. I'm saying that when you contribute to OGR outside of YoYo, you get Vault points. Then when you contribute to OGR through YoYo you get Vault points. Someone who is dedicated to OGR but wishes to have more Vault points would find that running both OGR and YoYo to produce a lot more total Vault points over all than if their contribution to OGR as a whole was measured by itself. Thus the double dipping. Umbrella projects create this problem. I'm not saying the points you earn at YoYo get added to your points earned at OGR at all. Yes YoYo gets those points added at OGR as you mention but it is tallied to HIS score. So, in regards to Vault points, one could actually milk the system by doing work at both projects for the same ultimate goal at OGR. An example of this valuation is thus: Whomever is first place for OGR gets the 10,000 vault points. Then they continue to do OGR through YoYo and get more points. Now OGR becomes more valuable than WCG or FAH. I think you would find a lot of people to disagree with that sentiment.

I will also add that OGR-27 is now complete and they are moving on to OGR-28 according to YoYo and distributed.net http://www.distributed.net/Main_Page so that means it should also be updated here too. Basically just a name change.

And yes, if Moo! was in the Vault, I would have lumped it in with this issue. Currently it is not part of the Vault and therefore is fine as it is.

Last edited by Coleslaw; 21st February 2014 at 04:34 PM.
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  #7  
Old 21st February 2014, 08:18 PM
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That is basically not correct what you are saying. I'm strict against double credits (in the Boinc project and in the native project which is wrapped) and you also do not get double vault points.
You and your team get the points in the Boinc part, in yoyo@home. In the native distributed.net ogr project you are the user u_your_boinc_name@yoyo.rechenkraft.net and you are in one Boinc Wrapper team (http://stats.distributed.net/team/tm...=27&team=31743). This user and team are not in the dc-vault. So no double credits and also no credits to "my" account, which is btw this http://stats.distributed.net/partici...d=27&id=174010. There I run the native client.
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  #8  
Old 21st February 2014, 08:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yoyo View Post
That is basically not correct what you are saying. I'm strict against double credits (in the Boinc project and in the native project which is wrapped) and you also do not get double vault points.
You and your team get the points in the Boinc part, in yoyo@home. In the native distributed.net ogr project you are the user u_your_boinc_name@yoyo.rechenkraft.net and you are in one Boinc Wrapper team (http://stats.distributed.net/team/tm...=27&team=31743). This user and team are not in the dc-vault. So no double credits and also no credits to "my" account, which is btw this http://stats.distributed.net/partici...d=27&id=174010. There I run the native client.
Thank you YoYo for clarifying that users points through YoYo don't go under your name at OGR. However, my description of points still doesn't say if you crunch YoYo you get Vault points in both. My description says that if a team was number one for OGR here in the Vault, they get the full 10,000 points. Then if they crunched more OGR work under YoYo, they would get Vault points for YoYo even if they didn't select any other YoYo sub projects. That means if all they ran was OGR work units between the two projects, they would be getting more thant 10,000 Vault points for basically the same project. I just want to clarify my standpoint. This IMHO is basically allowing OGR to be worth more than say DIMES or FAH as far as Vault points go in regards to the science being done. This also applies to PSP (the topic of the thread) in conjunction with PrimeGrid.

#1 team at OGR = 10k Vault points
#1 team at YoYo = 10k Vault points

One team could feasibly run nothing but OGR work at YoYo and then run the OGR client later and become #1 team at both here in the Vault. Simple math is 10k +10k = 20k points for theoretically only running OGR work units. The same equation could be applied to PSP + PrimeGrid.

Last edited by Coleslaw; 21st February 2014 at 09:02 PM.
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  #9  
Old 21st February 2014, 11:10 PM
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I don't see a problem there. If a team runs project A it gets vault points, if it runs project B it get vault points. Project A = OGR, Project B = yoyo.

Where is the problem, as long as 1 crunching time is not credited twice?
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  #10  
Old 22nd February 2014, 03:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yoyo View Post
I don't see a problem there. If a team runs project A it gets vault points, if it runs project B it get vault points. Project A = OGR, Project B = yoyo which includes OGR.

Where is the problem, as long as 1 crunching time is not credited twice?
Because in my eyes they are getting the option to earning up to double the Vault points for a single science. I don't care if it is being split between two "projects". I don't want to see the same work getting more Vault point value than all the others. I have heard complaints from people thinking that prime numbers should not be worth the same weight as FAH and I have disagreed based on the "worth" of any science can't be compared like that. However, I don't think there should be an option for earning up to double the Vault points for any of the science apps just because some Umbrella project added a wrapper under the BOINC client. That isn't meant to be offensive in any way. I'm just looking at the fairness of it all. We currently have 2 projects that fall into this unique situation. Has it broken anything horribly? No. But that doesn't mean it is really fair either. I would rather run YoYo than OGR for simplicity. However, I also don't want to be that guy who says you can't earn points for running that projects client software. The Vault clearly isn't BOINC only. So, how do you solve all of these issues? I don't know. I'm just pointing out that regardless if you like it or not, it is one science dipping into two sets of Vault points. In my eyes = double dipping.

I also fixed your statement for clarity of point. You also say as long as 1 crunching time is not credited twice.... That is nice if we were talking BOINC points and points at that project. However, we are talking Vault points, which means that OGR and PSP are potentially worth up to double the other projects as shown above.

And since this thread is about whether or not to drop PSP, it is very tempting to use that argument as a reason to drop it and level that playing field. However, since we don't have any rules against this right now and that topic is open for discussion in another thread right now, I can't just base dropping the project on that merit. Realistically, PSP still adheres to current standards.

Last edited by Coleslaw; 22nd February 2014 at 03:57 AM.
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  #11  
Old 22nd February 2014, 11:56 AM
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In my view the vault points are counting points of and for people and teams. The main goal is not to count the points a project got.

You could even argue, that my integer processing device (GPU) is creating double credits in e.g. RC5 and primegrid. Or if a university has 2 projects, that they got double credits. I find that argumentation and discussion stupid.
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  #12  
Old 22nd February 2014, 04:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beyond View Post
The venerable PSP Proth project has been around for a long time but is no longer being used to any extent.
I disagree. Its activity goes up and down, but thousands of tests have been crunched oved the last year as shown by the stats page: http://psp-project.de/stats.html
Please look at the table called "PRP Results returned by month".

Quote:
It's function was taken over long ago by PrimeGrid and the Vault project link points to a thread that was locked almost nine years ago:

http://www.mersenneforum.org/showthread.php?t=2665
Using the same logic, all projects wrapped by Yoyo should be removed as well. That's just silly.

Quote:
It's large point spread per place makes it very difficult for younger teams to move up in the Vault.
On the contrary! Large point spread means that creating a team and climbing as little as one spot in the rank will grant you many points!

I can't see that this project is breaking any of the rules for inclusion on the DC-Vault.

-opyrt
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  #13  
Old 22nd February 2014, 04:55 PM
Coleslaw Coleslaw is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yoyo View Post
In my view the vault points are counting points of and for people and teams. The main goal is not to count the points a project got.

You could even argue, that my integer processing device (GPU) is creating double credits in e.g. RC5 and primegrid. Or if a university has 2 projects, that they got double credits. I find that argumentation and discussion stupid.
Your logic is sound in the first sentence but the second is lacking. The Vault points a team gets is still tied to the amount a project gets. However, it is very narrow minded to think this is just about a project but rather the overlapping of the same science that is getting more potential points. I'm not even talking about a different approach to a similar science like two projects both using folding protein techniques. I'm talking about the exact same science using the same app except one has a wrapper. The problem here is that you are an admin of a project that clearly has a biased interest. Claiming peoples opinions on the matter to be stupid is just as stupid as arguing with a project admin that benefits from the problem. You just wont get anywhere with that. You can argue the logic of the term "project" being the point award, but I'm suggesting it should be tied to the science involved. It is just too bad this topic continues to be discussed in a thread with a completely different topic.

And thank you Opyrt for the info and insight. I'm glad to see more activity here in the forums.

Last edited by Coleslaw; 22nd February 2014 at 04:58 PM.
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  #14  
Old 22nd February 2014, 06:03 PM
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It doesn't make sense for me to continue discussion here. I wrote my opinion.

yoyo

BTW: I don't understand why this is blamed here, but other projects who let people really get double credits are not blamed.

bye
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  #15  
Old 22nd February 2014, 11:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yoyo View Post
It doesn't make sense for me to continue discussion here. I wrote my opinion.

yoyo

BTW: I don't understand why this is blamed here, but other projects who let people really get double credits are not blamed.

bye
You are acting like YoYo and OGR are the only ones blamed. PSP and PrimeGrid were in fact brought up. What other Vault projects are doing this? RC5 does not have another duplicate project here. Moo! is not in the Vault or I would have mentioned it. Seventeen or Bust could be thrown in there possibly but also is a PrimeGrid sub project. So, please show what other science is in more than one project here in the Vault... As far as I can see it is those 3 that are being potentially worth double the Vault points. Edit: Apparently I had over looked Muon possibly. Is that also correct to say it falls under this situation?

And to clarify why the topic was brought up here is because it is one possible reason to consider for removing the project. However, it is not a violation of the current Vault requirements which was also pointed out. I hope that clarifies things for you.

Last edited by Coleslaw; 23rd February 2014 at 06:48 AM.
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