2 ISDN lines, 3 or 4pcs and lots of confusion!

[Bindibadgi]

Ok i was recommended by bkpaul that you guys will help me find the holy grail (or the answer, whatever's easier).

Basically we've got 2 isdn lines in our house and the terminal is downstairs. My dads PC next to it uses 1 line and ive wired the other up to my room so i could use it for my PC (now my bro uses it cause im in uni now, and he's stuck his 200 cyrix crappy puter in my room using my isdn card so he can have the net).

We tryed networking mine and my fathers PCs together on a BNC cable connection with a pair of generic cards and basically it never worked. The isdn card and the ethernet would never work together and it was a disaster so the network was abandoned.

Now im back for Xmas and have "aquired" my bros PC almost for the festive period for the net connection :D and my brother wants his puter in his room and my dad wants the network done properly (considering HUB n RJ45 or whatever, dunno) and i want my PC to be able to use at home (cause my bros got a 200 cyrix an EIDE harddisk and 64 PC66 ram! ITS DRIVING ME MAAAAD! i want my 1.4gig tbird, radeon 8500 and windows to load in 23 seconds NOT 4 minutes!) on the net (which we cant do cause 3 pcs and only 2 isdn lines).

Sooooooooo what do u recon a very very networking n00b do? (ive got loads of experience with computers in general, and mine and my bros are running XP Pro, my dads is 98se, but that can be sorted to XP too). What is pretty much cost effective and easy to set up (and versitile, ive gotta be able to plug in and out when i come back/goto uni).

Ahh i know i wont get any replys cause youll all have fallen asleep by now.. :rolleyes:

[Baptizer]

I would consider a router to solve all your problems. A hub will not get the job done I dont think. So is one ISDN connection still going to be strictly for your dad? Ya know, i am not sure why you have two connections in the first place. From my knowledge, you are not getting any extra bandwidth.....at least you wouldnt if you got the type of Cable connection i have. It basically steals off itself. But ISDN might be different huh?

[Baptizer]

oh, where are my manners:
Welcome to the foruM!

[Bindibadgi]

Umm cheers :D

There are 2 isdn lines avaliable so you can do 2x 64k which we use it like atm, or 1x 128kb using 1 line for send data, and 1 line for receive. Basically we want all the PCs on a network and both lines avaliable. However (sorry forgot to add above).

BT (oh how lovely they are) wont let us use the connection we have subscribed to for 1x 128kb connection from 1 PC on 1 isdn card (ie both lines at once using the same user/pass), HOWEVER it WILL let us use the 2 lines from 2 different PCs at the same time with the same user/pass!?!

Ive not tryed however 2 isdn cards in the same PC both on separate lines both dialed in at the same time, not 1x 128kb but 2x64kb and hope windows will merge the data (like 2 modems!)

Buuuuuuuuuuuuut we want all the PCs networked so we were wondering if we could encorporate it all!?

Also my brothers pc is due for an upgrade (200cyrix out the window WOOHOO!) so that could be used as a central pc or something?!?

Also: What's a router do? How do they differ from Hubs?? remember im a newbie to networking. :(

[Baptizer]

Ok, let me first explain my situation and how i solved it. I have 4 computers at my home and needed to connect them all up to 1 Cable connection. If i connected up all the computers to a HUB and then to the cable modem, this would not work. There would be no internet connection to the pc's. What i needed to get was a router. The router assigns ip's to each individual computer, 'routing' the traffic to the computer that wants the info. The router acts as a switch and lets my connect up all 4 computers to just one cable connection(the only other way to do this was to purchase 4 ip addresses from my provideer!!!!!! definitely not worth the money when i can just purchase a 90 dollar router!).
The router i purchased was the Linksys BEFSR41 - EtherFast® Cable/DSL Router with 4-Port Switch. At first i had problems with online games, but that was recified with a newer firmware.
Basically Hubs can not perform the switching needed to have a network connected to the internet. With a router, you basically just plug them all up, and bingo...no 3rd party programs needed, no nothing. The router acts like a hub though.....

Now, one thing to keep in mind is that a router only has one INPUT for the ISDN connection...meaning, you cannot plug in both ISDN connections into the router. From my knowledge, you are wasting your money having two ISDN connections. For example here is what would happen if you had 1 connection:
-if you wanted two computers downloading stuff, it would be 2x64k(like you said).
-now if you wanted two computers downloading stuff, and 1 user uploading stuff, i think that itll still be 2x64k and 1x128k because the upload and download do not 'steal' off eachother.

[4.6POWER]

I'm not familiar with ISDN, but if you are using a modem for each connection and an ethernet card for each computer... then a router would be an option. Basically the way it would work would be to put one computer on one connection, and the others would share a connection. You could find a way for all pc's to share both connections, but I would imagine it involves something costly.

A router is basically just a hub with better transfer/switching characteristics. If two people are trying to suck up all the bandwidth, the router will split it evenly between the two. If one pc is idle and the other is active... the active pc will get full bandwidth until the other needs some. Usually they have wan (wide area network) ports to connect your modem, that way your internal network(those pcs on the hub) can share the modem. Some also have firewalls built in... but it is nothing more than a fancy hub.

Hope at least something here helped,

Joe

[Bindibadgi]

Nice1 guys :) that explains a lot!

Bap - the reason why iev got 2 isdn lines is cause its bundled like it, each line can carry 64k of data and its designed to be "diverse" so that 2 pcs can use the net at once, or 1 pc at 128k (this was b4 adsl was introduced to consumers we bought it).

I think ill rig up my bros PC with 2 isdn cards and try to get both to dial in like 2 modems and hence have 128k for the network, then get an ethernet card and router for that PC too like you said and have it as a main rig so as everyone just access' that PC for the net? would that work??

Also what's a smoothwall? ive heard ppl talk about it in situations like this. And would win XP Pro detect the IPs given by the router automatically - cause i hate setting up any networking stuff in windows

[Baptizer]

XP definitely detects the ips and you usually never have to configure anything. But, if i can recall correctly, you do still need to setup network neighborhood, which for me was a bit tricky under XP(they changed the old way you used to do it......and it took me longer to figure it out...but figured it out regardless).
I understand waht you mean now about the 2 ISDN connections...gotcha!
So basically in this sitaution, you are going to have to do exactly what you said and putting two isdn modems in one computer, then connect that computer up to a router. I am not exactly sure how this is going to work......but i know it will. Hopefully someone else can give you more information and verify if this will work. This basically has me believing that the one computer will kinda act like a server, supplying the internet connection to the router. Now i am confused as to whether you can connect this computer to the "INPUT" connector of the modem, since this is where the connection to the net is coming from. Hmm........

Never heard of smoothwall......i am not sure if you are referring to firewall, and if you are, a router has a built in firewall to protect you from the outside.

[Baptizer]

One more thing.....What does an ISDN modem look like? Are we talking something more similar to a 56k modem, or is it an external modem, more similar to a cable/dsl modem?
Lets hope someone else can come and verify what we have discussed here. Definitely don't go only by what i have accounted here.....:D :D

[Bindibadgi]

right im working over 2 forums at once here :D and youve both got very simlar but different ideas.

http://www.theoverclockingstore.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=10735#post10735

Anyway, an ISDN card (its not a "modem" - modulator/demodulator, cause its a digital line), is a digital optical line that you dial up. This confuses the hell out of windows, especially 9x versions caues its not a modem, but is a network adapter that dials up!?
Its just a small PCB with a very simlar like cable to CAT5 stuff, but there are only 4 wires and the pin configuration is different. If you want a pic of the generic one i use - i can send u one if u like :D

[Baptizer]

Just read a few replies over there. One thing i was about to suggest is the use of a 3rd party program, such as winroute(as lucifer suggested over in there forum). But i am not fond of using a 3rd party program, personally it is an annoyance. It also uses up some of your computer resources, something that i would not recommend.
The router i recommended was a DSL/CABLE router......for some odd reason i was regarding a ISDN connection being identical to a DSL connection. I am obviously wrong and should have read what you wrote. my bad.

[Baptizer]

In regards to Smoothwall, here is the definition i have fetched, and a concurent website:

SmoothWall is an ever popular secure GNU/Linux OS stripped down and heavily customised to provide a DEVICE CREATION TOOL for users/admins/ISPs to create a fortified web managed firewall.

http://sourceforge.net/projects/smoothwall/

[mackerel]

I think bkpaul suggested something similar in the other forum, but how about a network of two PCs sharing one connection, and the third PC kept seperate with its own connection.

This doesn't need any additional software other than the PC with the net interface must be running Win98SE, ME, 2k, or XP. I've not tried with IDSN, but this works fine with dial-up modem and cable.

Install the network cards in the two machines. In the one with the IDSN device, install "Internet Connection Sharing". This is a bit different in the various OSes. In 98 and ME, you have to find it somewhere in "add/remove programs" in control panel. In 2k and XP, I think you have to enable it directly on the net (ISDN) device directly but as I don't use them often I can't be sure. I believe that Win2k/XP, although have their advantages, for the stuff I do they have too much baggage and Win9x is generally better for me.

Anyway, once ICS is set up on the machine with the net connection, go to the other and make sure the network settings (TCP/IP) has "automatically obtaines IP address" selected and that DHCP is on. This will then let it grab settings as required off the ICS machine.

That should be it. I've used that setup with Win98SE as my ICS machine, allowing my networks of too many PCs to access the net for about 5 months without any trouble.

[Bindibadgi]

Originally posted by Baptizer
Just read a few replies over there. One thing i was about to suggest is the use of a 3rd party program, such as winroute(as lucifer suggested over in there forum). But i am not fond of using a 3rd party program, personally it is an annoyance. It also uses up some of your computer resources, something that i would not recommend.
The router i recommended was a DSL/CABLE router......for some odd reason i was regarding a ISDN connection being identical to a DSL connection. I am obviously wrong and should have read what you wrote. my bad.

Yea you're not the first to confuse it, its an awkward inbetween dsl/modem :(

I really dont like using 3rd party software too, for the reasons that you said or its not compatible or it doesnt work or something happens to the software.. etcetc

http://upload.turbosport.co.uk/gallery2/7653772234916.JPG

or

http://upload.turbosport.co.uk/gallery2/2136760950088.JPG

which is better.. and am i in the right direction??

also what about: http://www.dabs.com/products/prod-info.asp?quicklinx=TDS

[mackerel]

I just re-read the original message, what was the problem with a network before? If you get it working, you should have everything you need already.

Pic below is my amazing graphical representation of what I was describing. Basically the third PC is left alone to keep it simple.

[Bindibadgi]

problem is then id have to connect (and set up) my bros/dads machine with ICS and when im not here wouldnt it ****** up?

Also my dad wants all the PCs networked as well, however i dont think he likes the idea of a £100 router so your way maybe the only viable way..

[Bindibadgi]

ive just talked to my dad and we've decided todo it your way mackerel (cause its cheaper and if we did wanna share files wmy bro and i have CDRWs and we'll make do). :) Thx - ill let you know how it goes :D

thx for your help everyone!

[mackerel]

Oh, just one point. I'm not sure how dial-on-demand works over this type of network, as I've never had to use it. :D

Even with all 3 PCs connected, the non-ICS one with ISDN can still use its own, as windows seems to use dial-up in perference to LAN when it comes to the net.

File sharing stuff should work regardless of the net access.

[Bindibadgi]

Well my PC (when its at home) will be connected to my fathers litterally 3 feet away from it so connecting to the net is just a chair swivel away :)

Ive had someone suggest that ICS is completely pap and i shouldnt use it and just use 3 PCs on 1 64k line!?! i cant see my brother when he gets on CS being very happy though..

[mackerel]

When ICS works it does allow you access to the net. I've not had anything not work through it, except servers since machines behind ICS are not "visible" to the net. Thankfully most of the time ICS does work, occasionally it might need a bit of kicking during install, just shout if that happens and I'm sure we could sort it out.

The only possible problem as you hinted at is that with 3 machines sharing 64k, anything more than general browsing may be well slow. Hence I suggested that one of the three can still connect directly through the other line.