Dark City - Sci Fi or Fantasy?

[Fallguy]

Just curious to see what folks think of this film,
assuming you have seen it and can remember it.

I would post a poll, but lets face it that is beyond my somewhat pathetic internet skillz..... :)

Fallguy

[CyberdynSystems]

I'm trying to recall,.. is this the William Hurt film,..? (Damn was it even William hurt?) The one where the teams of men in Cenobyte outfits go throught the City and remake it evry night with spray guns of reality????

If it is the one I am thinking of,.. it is definately SciFi,.. based on not one,.. not two,. but three completely different short stories by none other than,... you guessed it, Phillip K. Dick!!! It took aspects from three of his short stories and merged them into one Movie. I kind of liked it,.. in fact,. now I need to find it on Video and see it again.

I hope we are talking about the same film?!

[Fallguy]

Um,
at a guess, yes. But is it really science fiction?

Fallguy

[wyles]

Love Dark City. Excellent film.
My Lit teacher once said Science Fiction should have certain elements:
1. of a scientific nature (:rolleyes: )
2. Should have its basis in fact - ie: if certain events, however improbable or unlikely, came to pass the events described could possibly happen.
This would lump the star wars saga etc as science fantasy, and Dark City as science fiction.

Now he was also full of shite on occassions, but I have found that definition quite handy sometimes.

Stories like 1984, War of the Worlds, hell even star trek come under science fiction due to (remembering the era they were written) the inherent believability that the events may just possibly actually happen.

[Fallguy]

Ah,
but what is the difference between these reality altering aliens, who have the ability to alter reality by using a machine, and a bunch of evil magicians, who use magic to investigate a group of trapped humans by using a magical chunk of metal??

I just happened to finally find a DVD-ROM that would play back my copy of Dark City without crashing, and I have to say that watching it there was surprisingly little that actually made it a science fiction film.

Of course, it was a cracking film, and I am glad I can watch it now. Thought provoking films are all too rare nowadays...!

Fallguy

[wyles]

Hmm......yes good point, but I was thinking more along the lines of humans being used for experimental purposes (which of course happens) rather than the actual circumstances of the experiment itself.

Regardless it is a fine film which due to this thread dammit I have to now find time to watch again! :D :D

[Fallguy]

Hmm,
well it just seemed to me that the difference between fantasy and science fiction is very difficult to actually divide in many of these cases. Is the concept of "tuning" so far removed from magic? And is a city floating in space so far different from a magical cloud based kingdom?

And if Star Wars is fantasy, then why is Dark City science fiction?

Fallguy

[wyles]

I guess it depends on your interpretation.
to me it was more the experimentation on humans, the whole "what makes us tick" theme that gives it the sci-fi feel....given the fact that humans are constantly striving to find deeper meaning in their own existence, often regardless of the cost or consequence to their own personal happiness (a-la matrix....red pill/blue pill, but there's another discussion ;) )...do we really WANT to know the truth??

There is definately a fantasy element to the film....alien abduction, cities in spaceships, brainwashing and massive reconstruction of cities etc....but I still believe that the themes of the film rate it with science fiction.

[CyberdynSystems]

well it just seemed to me that the difference between fantasy and science fiction is very difficult to actually divide in many of these cases.

Couldn't agree with you more Fallguy,.. and sorry I missed the continued discussion. :(

My ascertion that it was Sci-fi was mainly becuase of the fact that it is based on the writings of Phillip K. Dick. Now that I know what movie we are talking about for sure,. I will endeavor to ressurect each of these short stries to which I refer. However,. if you have read any Dick,. than you know that it is an oft repeated theme of his that we are living in a perceptual reality that is a facade,.. manipulated by some other beings,... or force. This seems to be a very common theme in Sci-fi in particular. More and more films are using this tool as well,. most recently Matrix,. but dozens more are around. Phillip K. Dick in particular focused on these alternate realities,.. with very little resemblance to any common Sci-Fi accutrments,... no starships or aliens,.. etc. One of his award winners ,.. "The Man in the High Castle" focuses on a reality on which Japan and Germany won WWII. It takes place in the 1960's essentially the technology of the world is exactly what it was in the Sixties that Dick was living in at the time,.. just altered slightly by the influence of Japanese and German trend.

I will try and find the three short stories to which I refer and post there titles here with a brif synopsys. What I definately remember is that the Story with the "Night Crew" that rebuilds the City evry day is definately a different short story from the one with the train ride and the vague memory of the other town,, (in the case of Dark City it was the Vacation resort on the Beach)

[Fallguy]

Hmm,
the funny thing is that Dark City seems to be Sci-Fi because it tries to make itself that way. The use of the strangers "tuning" machine, the distillation and remixing of memories using a microscope and needles, the floating city in space, it all points to sci fi. And yet science fiction is usually extrapolated out of science fact, and I really can't see any science "fact" that could be extrapolated into manipulation of reality, nor any means of extracting human memories. Unlike, say, a Warp engine, based on the concept of tachyons and warp fields, the concept of a reality altering machine does not follow from the current principles of science, certainly as we know them today.

What I am trying to say here, albiet badly, is the more you inspect the film in both its concepts and its setting, the more it seems to become science fantasy.

Fallguy

[CyberdynSystems]

Whoa! Now you've gone and done it! Science Fantasy? :D I'm so confused. :banghead:

"..bridging the gap between Sci-Fi and Fantasy.."

A lot of the work by Dick ,. Vonnegut,.. and Borghese (sp?) was sort of arbitrarily lumped in with Sci-Fi as know one seemed to know what else to call it. I agree,.. it really does not fit in with our standard definition of Sci-fi,..

So is there a "Definition" of Sci-fi somewhere,.. or is it too vague? Or worse yet,.. is it all just an arbitrary tag given based on personal opinions?

I've heard people say Future Fantasy as well...

[BigBen]

Hi :)
Dark city I would say is science fiction as is the matrix, star wars etc at least IMHO ..... Fantasy for me means no technology as in LOTR but some films have blurred edges eg Harry potter which although a fantasy does have trains and a car and if i remember correctly starts off in quite a modern house ... so maybe i just defeated my own argument hahahahahhaa :D

Regards

[CyberdynSystems]

My understanding of Sci-Fi Vs. Fantasy is much less specific.

Sci-fi basically asks,.. what if? About our reality. It can be basic as in What if we had warp enines,.. but it could also be What if our persception of reality is generated by space aliens etc. It takes the world that we are familiar with and throws in alternate info,. be it technology,.. or history etc.

Fantasy,.. tends to assume a different set of rules for the world all together. LOTR is not our world. Plain and simple.

Again in the case of a Harry Potter type story it is more difficult to discern using this crteia,.. but what they are asking us to say What-if? about is not based on a theoretical or scientific alteration of our relaity,.. but a purely, "Fantastic" reality where the likes of Magic and mythological beastys can roam free.

Well,.. I've just answered my own question for my own self anyways :D and I think its a decent working definition!

Now,.. somebody blow it out of the water!

[wyles]

Originally posted by Fallguy
Ah,
but what is the difference between these reality altering aliens, who have the ability to alter reality by using a machine, and a bunch of evil magicians, who use magic to investigate a group of trapped humans by using a magical chunk of metal??


look at it on a macroscopic level.
Are these two things probable...
1. a race of aliens exists and abducts humans for experimental purposes
2. a race of evil wizards exists etc etc etc.

There is circumstancial evidence of the first, hell some people even donate countless cpu hours to search for them :D. there are countless (creditable or not, it is irrelevant) reports of this actually happening. number 2 seems just so much more.......fantastic.

The "details" of plot and artistic licence taken dont really have as much bearing on the classification as does the broader concept.(imho)

[wyles]

Originally posted by CyberdynSystems
Now,.. somebody blow it out of the water!

:D

nope...I like that definition a lot.
I believe we are saying the same thing but that puts it a bit better.

[Fallguy]

Originally posted by wylie
Originally posted by Fallguy
Ah,
but what is the difference between these reality altering aliens, who have the ability to alter reality by using a machine, and a bunch of evil magicians, who use magic to investigate a group of trapped humans by using a magical chunk of metal??


look at it on a macroscopic level.
Are these two things probable...
1. a race of aliens exists and abducts humans for experimental purposes
2. a race of evil wizards exists etc etc etc.

There is circumstancial evidence of the first, hell some people even donate countless cpu hours to search for them :D. there are countless (creditable or not, it is irrelevant) reports of this actually happening. number 2 seems just so much more.......fantastic.

The "details" of plot and artistic licence taken dont really have as much bearing on the classification as does the broader concept.(imho)

Hmmm,
so you are saying it is more likely that a bunch of aliens (who happen to live inside dead human bodies) with matter altering technology is more likely that a group of evil (but human) wizards who have discovered some means of manipulating matter by ESP or magic or summit?

I mean 0.00000000000000000001% of a chance is more than 0.0000000000000000000000000000005% of a chance, but both are IMO so unlikely as to be fantastic in their nature.

I think it was said best by Arther C Clarke - "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic".

Hence Fantasy and Science Fiction are actually the same genre, or rather fantasy is PART of the catagory we call science fiction. It is only our insufficiently advanced knowledge of science that distinguishes the 2.

Fallguy

[CyberdynSystems]

But Sci-fi is allways saying somewhere,.. "This COULD happen" "This is how things COULD be" .. odds aside.

No matter what the stretch is,. the ascertian is that it is somehow a plausible alternative,.. This is part of the problem with pigeon holing Sci-fi is the vast degree of increments that the stretch can ask of you. From Japan and Germany Winning WWII,.. which is a simple stretch we can all imagine,.. to our entire view of reality being a facade implememted by aliens,.. which granted is a gargantuan and barely pluasable stretch of our understanding of reality,.. each still challenges us to beleive that "This is how things COULD be"

Fantasy never makes this claim.
Fantasy allways says,.. "Wouldn't it be cool IF this could happen" or " IF only this were how things could be" Fantasy never tries to imply that the the world is actually one step or even a giant leap away form the Fantastic worlds that they profer. Tolkein never never tried to convince us that Middle Earth was our Earth. It is,.. pure fantasy...

[Fallguy]

Originally posted by CyberdynSystems
But Sci-fi is allways saying somewhere,.. "This COULD happen" "This is how things COULD be" .. odds aside.

No matter what the stretch is,. the ascertian is that it is somehow a plausible alternative,.. This is part of the problem with pigeon holing Sci-fi is the vast degree of increments that the stretch can ask of you. From Japan and Germany Winning WWII,.. which is a simple stretch we can all imagine,.. to our entire view of reality being a facade implememted by aliens,.. which granted is a gargantuan and barely pluasable stretch of our understanding of reality,.. each still challenges us to beleive that "This is how things COULD be"

Fantasy never makes this claim.
Fantasy allways says,.. "Wouldn't it be cool IF this could happen" or " IF only this were how things could be" Fantasy never tries to imply that the the world is actually one step or even a giant leap away form the Fantastic worlds that they profer. Tolkein never never tried to convince us that Middle Earth was our Earth. It is,.. pure fantasy...

Hmmm,
I'm not sure I follow your arguement.... :D

For example, you would agree that Dune is a Science Fiction novel? How does the world in the novel Dune relate the world we live in today? At no point in Dune does it ever say "this is how things could be". It doesn't even mention Earth, or Terra, or any other synonym. For all we know the universe Dune is set in could be completely different from our own.

Middle Earth may not be OUR Earth, but since science fiction has delved into the realms of parrallel dimensions, who is to say that this is not a world that could have been? An alternate Earth, where magic works in some way or means (or is it technology so far advanced we can't identify it?). Middle Earth could easily be explained by a scientific background, if need be....

If you delve deep enough, you always seem to find that science fiction and fantasy are so closely related as to make it difficult to tell them apart.

Fallguy

[CyberdynSystems]

I don't really agree that Dune is Sci-fi only though... Dune is both!

(Lets make this as complicated as possible)

The universe that Dune establishes is Fantasy from the start,.. Just as I have allways argued that StarWars is Fantasy. (Dune by the way being Lucas' biggest influence)

But Dune has Sci fi elements throughout. Folding space,.. for example is something that Herbert is proposing "this could happen" he doesn't have a sorcerer move those freighters through space just because they have magic,.. he explains in great detail the ability of the guild pilots to fold the fabric of space... the shields,. the still suits,. all of it grounded in some form of a reality that we can see as somehow applicable.

If you delve deep enough, you always seem to find that science fiction and fantasy are so closely related as to make it difficult to tell them apart.

Again,.. I totally agree with you here. In fact,.. I'm loving this whole discussion as it is helping me figure out where the dividing lines do exist,.. however vague they may be :D

Yesterday I had no answer,.. today I've got the beginnings of one.

But like most things in life,.. an answer is never "The Answer" just one of many we can choose to agree with or not.

[speculative]

It is neither... it is speculative fiction. ;)

-spec

[CyberdynSystems]

touche~

[speculative]

It could almost be condensed into a one-hour "Twilight Zone" episode, where things are not quite what they seem... Perhaps it would be better suited for "The Outer Limits" though on 2nd thought.

-speculative

[Fallguy]

Ahah!

So if Dune is fantasy, then why was it the winner of several science fiction awards?

I would agree that it is definately both catagories, but rather because there is no dividing line between the 2. If the degree of plausability is the only divider between sci-fi and fantasy, then any differentiation between the 2 is purely subjective on the part of the reader. In essence its something we make up to try and catagorise something that can't necessarily be catagorised.

Fallguy

[CyberdynSystems]

The subjectivity is only an issue where we need to decide on our own,.. It is the author intent and handling of it that decides for us.

If two authors both descibe someone with superhuman strength,,..

One has his hero get that strength by pulling a magic riding crop out of a stone and anvil.

The second has his hero gain his strength through a secret government experiment with gentitic and drugs to make a supersoldier...

The first is fantasy,.. the second is Sci-Fi. It all has to do with how the author presents it. Is he saying,.. "This could happen" but to say that,..the author needs to present some explanation beyond,.. "It was magic",.. or "And then RA the sun god bestowed this power.."

P.S.,, I found Two of the Short Stories Last Night. They were republished in an anthology called The Book Of Phillip K. Dick. Originally all the stories were magazine publications in 1952- 1955

1. "Adjustment Team"
Guy on his way to work walks into the Adjustment team remaking the City... " I saw the fabric of reality split open.,.. I saw behind.." in this story the adjustmant team is part of a network that works for none other than... the supreme being,... By my definition then,.. Fantasy!

2. "The Commuter" In this story,.. the averadge joe is on his way home from work,.. gets to the train station,.. and can't get a ticket to "Macon Heights" His home is no longer on the map. No one has heard of it. In this one no explanantion is offered,.. the guy finds the place and gets home to find that all reality has alterede and the freindly waitress is now his wife and they have a son. Very Twilight Zone.

[Fallguy]

Originally posted by CyberdynSystems
The subjectivity is only an issue where we need to decide on our own,.. It is the author intent and handling of it that decides for us.

If two authors both descibe someone with superhuman strength,,..

One has his hero get that strength by pulling a magic riding crop out of a stone and anvil.

The second has his hero gain his strength through a secret government experiment with gentitic and drugs to make a supersoldier...

The first is fantasy,.. the second is Sci-Fi. It all has to do with how the author presents it. Is he saying,.. "This could happen" but to say that,..the author needs to present some explanation beyond,.. "It was magic",.. or "And then RA the sun god bestowed this power.."

P.S.,, I found Two of the Short Stories Last Night. They were republished in an anthology called The Book Of Phillip K. Dick. Originally all the stories were magazine publications in 1952- 1955

1. "Adjustment Team"
Guy on his way to work walks into the Adjustment team remaking the City... " I saw the fabric of reality split open.,.. I saw behind.." in this story the adjustmant team is part of a network that works for none other than... the supreme being,... By my definition then,.. Fantasy!

2. "The Commuter" In this story,.. the averadge joe is on his way home from work,.. gets to the train station,.. and can't get a ticket to "Macon Heights" His home is no longer on the map. No one has heard of it. In this one no explanantion is offered,.. the guy finds the place and gets home to find that all reality has alterede and the freindly waitress is now his wife and they have a son. Very Twilight Zone.

Hmmm,
so the authors intent is the difference between Sci-Fi and Fantasy.... fair enough, I can live with that..... :D

And if the author can't decide, well they need some assertiveness classes :rofl:

Fallguy

[CyberdynSystems]

so the authors intent is the difference between Sci-Fi and Fantasy.... fair enough, I can live with that.....

Oh,.. I doubt it! :rofl:

In the end you, (and I) will be saying,.. "Bullcrap! That wasn't Sci-fi!!!" no matter wht the author intends! :D

Which brings us right back to what you said in the beginning,.. a fine line... :)

[wyles]

A very fine line. dont think you can just say "authors intent" and leave it at that....Im sure I could intend to write a sci fi novel, and fail abysmally. some of Heinleins work (now you cant deny HE is a sci fi writer) would have to be considered fantasy (Glory Road)......if anythings been proved here its readers interpretation (which of course is never right or wrong)

[fragallrocks]

If it has Koblads, orcs and beards in it is is fantasy. Hairy feet also make it fantasy. Sci-fi goes pow with laser guns and nosies in the vacum in space. Sorry was this a serious discussion? I seem to be lost.

[speculative]

Somewhere between reality and the unknown, science fiction has always flourished. The best sci-fi authors rigidly adhere to one principle: Make it as real as possible, given what’s known.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/845677.asp?0si=-&cp1=1

Eureka!

"Fantasy" can never age, if it is purely in the realm of the imagination. Will Tolkien grow old after 2000 years of readers? No. However, Asimov will seem quite quaint after 2000 years of history have passed. Sorry I had forgotten this "theme" between the two fields of fiction, but there you have it.

-speculative

[wyles]

excellent point speccy.....how dated do Jules Verne and H G Wells appear now?
I can see the future looking at our current sci-fi and having a bit of a chuckle! :D

[CyberdynSystems]

Nice way to define it Spec! Well done.